July 29th, 2009 | Interviews

dan monick

Download: Dudley Perkins “Fonky Soul”


(from Holy Smokes out now on SomeOthaShip)

Georgia Anne Muldrow and Dudley Perkins left Stones Throw to do their own work and to teach and meditate in the mountains. They prepare now to release a solo album each—both produced by Georgia—on the same day this month on SomeOthaShip, and they speak from their home in Inglewood about war, love, power and Michael Jackson. These extended interviews by Chris Ziegler.

How did you two make so much music all at once?
Well, we’re working with spirit you know? These times right now—we’re in the age of Aquarius, I suppose, and we just left the age of Pisces. Aquarius is like water—it’s translucent and it magnifies. We’ve just been working on that and we’ve been magnifying our spirits for a message because Mother Earth has actually called out right now because of the damage that man has done to her. If you truly care about music and you’ve got compassion for people, you can connect on a vibration of that level and hear momma call you—you have to stand up and take on a warrior stance because it’s your mother. Our warrior stance is—since we don’t have bombs and stuff—ours is to do sound.
You’ve said the music you and Georgia Anne Muldrow make is for one reason only—to stop war. Is that why you’re doing this?
Until there’s no more war. Then we’ll do music that we can have fun to and dance to. Right now there’s babies dying constantly every day because of man-made differences. This isn’t a conspiracy—I don’t like to use the word conspiracy because it’s the word that we’re taught to use when we’re questioning whether something is true or not true. This stuff is true—what they’re doing to the human populace. So we actually do the sound. Music sustains. It reaches. Truth in music sustains even longer. We’re trying to get a song that sustains in the hearts of men so they’ll put down the guns and the weapons that kill babies. First of all you have to make a choice. Is this music for vanity? Is this music for play? Is it for political power? Or is it to heal and inspire? You have to think if that’s what you want to do. Then after that the universe will fold for you—bend for you to get this stuff done. It will come to your aid to help out mother earth.
What happens when you make that choice?
There’s no more fried chicken. There’s no more ice cream, no more donuts. Ain’t no more MGDs, ain’t no more alcohol, ain’t no more Wal-Mart’s. You have to make a step into the right decision and wake yourself up. Music is something we do because we follow the vibration of man—the creative vibration of being on this earth. But there’s a message behind this music for us and this message is ‘stop.’ Stop hurting yourself, stop hurting the babies—stop it. Wake up and heal. Give to your neighbors. Love your brother—for real. Wake up from the demonic black music that’s out there. It’s a wake-up call. Wake up for the black people that don’t know their own true history and don’t care about their histories anymore. They don’t care how Africa is still constantly bombarded by rape from all sides and then told that they don’t love us. Of course they don’t love us if we’re letting this stuff happen.
Who else in music is saying these things with you?
In history: Earth, Wind and Fire. George Clinton—Georgia can go on ever further than me. But now there’s a lot of ego in all of it, even the ones that are trying to help. Nas, he’s trying to help, but he’ll wear a diamond. And I’ll put their names out there like that because I’m not fond of asleep negroes. I’m not fond of coons. I believe in this plan, I believe in babies. And I believe babies are sponges and all that crap on TV—all them Beyonces with the permed hair—they don’t allow a new black person on this planet to even have any clue to what they’ve done for this planet. They don’t have no clue—they don’t even know who Martin Luther King is right now. They think it’s a street where you sell dope on and sell bean pies for some fake religions. You know how I break through this? I break through this by questioning authority and if anybody tries to place authority on me, I have to question them. Why do they want to have power over my human being that came from my great creator? My momma? You gotta see through all the bull crap—it’s there, and now it’s even there more. Like the chemtrails in the sky. They’re spraying us down and it’s in the constitution to legally spray us without notifying the populace of America.
You once said music dictates how a nation movies—what did you mean?
The people move the nation—without music the nation wouldn’t move, okay? During times of war, what do you hear more of? Rock ‘n’ roll. Good old American music blasting everywhere during times of war. During times of depression you hear depressed songs. There hasn’t been a happy state. During the time of the liberation of black people in America, look at the songs—it was all ‘free!’ Everything was free, but it was all part of the plan. Now you see the music with autotune killing the God off in man. Music allows God to be seen. To be seen on the vibration of life. We started here with an empty computer with all the knowledge in it that we just have to find out how to access. It’s an automatic access process—those who have been here a little longer know how to manipulate the access. I love music—I love people who do music. I’m a creative kinda cat, but I know that it’s not being used for what it’s supposed to be used for. Like take my music for instance—my music is hated on by white people and black people constantly.
How do you know?
I run a label so I check out how the record doing all the time and how my artists’ records are doing. So I get to see a lot of the hate. It comes to me. I could get on an album with Georgia and I’ll bring that hate to the album—that’s why I don’t get on a lot of her music right now. I wanted to leave her alone. This is me doing this—this is me speaking out against the system. This is Dudley Perkins. I want you to put this in the magazine—I want you to put all of this in the magazine. This is no joke to me. This is what my spirit tells me to do in these last days. I have dreams. My dreams aren’t of pussy. My dreams aren’t of being rich and famous. My dreams are babies’ faces blown open from bombs from European nations. Indigenous people, black people—all kinds of black people. Melanated people. Red, white and green. All those people getting bombed up. You don’t see America and Russia going at it—they have cold wars. But they’ll kill a black person right away and I have to stand up for that. I’m not asleep, I don’t perm my hair, I don’t eat at McDonald’s, I don’t care about this structure, about this system. I don’t care about presidents. Obama can go to hell because that’s where he’s trying to send the majority of these people who don’t know—to hell. They don’t know exactly what death is and how to go through it—they don’t know what life is and what they’re doing in it. They’re all just programmed by TV. MK-ULTRA. Crap like that. During the cold war, they wanted to put all these people to sleep when they found out that during genetic splicing blacks and whites mixed their melanin, so now you got some white people who are black now. And they can’t stand it! There is a blue blood on this planet that has stayed pure, but they die off easily. They have kept them in England—in this one circle for all this time untainted. If somebody comes in because one of the husbands gets horny and goes to somebody not of blue blood, they will kill them off. Princess Diana. Michael Jackson just passing. He was martyred because of the message that was about to come through the vessel. Regardless of what the vessel does or what the body shows, what the spirit speaks on is the truth—and he was about to say some profound things in front of these people. Forty sold out shows in Europe. Here’s what I do. I keep doing this. I keep spreading the message. You notice they can’t stop me. I drop more records than any underground cat. I’ve been doing it since 2001 or 2000 and I will continue doing this because God or whatever you want to call it—the divine sprits—the power that lets you breathe—the electricity man—big dad! He allows me to do this because he knows my heart. He knows my heart. They know my heart, as they would say in the Bible. They call me ‘Preacher Man’ because I’m not afraid of the spirit. I love the spirit. I embrace the spirit.
Were you ever afraid of the spirit?
I went to Christian church—oh heck yeah, I was spooked out. I thought the pitchfork man was going to poke me in the back. There was all kinds of dark images. It was very dark to me, Christianity. I just kept away from it. I just leave all books alone and I go from the heart—off of my pure heart.
Captain Beefheart once said he never reads books, either.
Exactly. You could see movies, read all these books and go to church as much as you want but all you’re going to get is a half- assed feeling. The feeling comes from inside only. We know that because it generates in and comes out through tears—through shivers on your arms. It doesn’t come from the outside in. The plug is inside of us—the source is inside of us, not outside. Being creative is just being. If you just be, then that’s an automatic creation. Every movement is a new creation—pictures, drawings, it’s all part of the creation. And creation is just one word right? You get it? There aren’t many words for creation—there’s just the one, but all of this is under this word. This is all part of the plan. We are one with all things. We in a test tube so we can’t see the full circle—we see the distances between things but if someone did a microscope test we’d all be one.
Do you think this is the most creative time in your life?
When I was young I was creative because I wasn’t lazy. I was real open—I draw pictures, I paint, I did my covers. I’m an artist at heart. I’m a poet. When you look at a lot of reviews for my music, they give me every word except what I am. They call me rapper, talker—I’m a poet MC. Here’s a little ego for these people. I’m one of the coldest MCs on this planet and if anybody got anything to say about it—put this in this magazine—come and see the doctor. Come and see me. We’ll do a record together and I’ll drop it on their heads so hard it’ll crack it open with knowledge.
Do you think anybody will take you up on that?
Nope. I’ve been around a bunch of cold MCs and they all give me respect. That’s why when I see the hate in the interviews and the reviews and stuff—it’s all because they can’t do what I’m doing. I’m doing back flips and they’re still trying to learn the cartwheels.
You were quoted saying people in L.A. are the realest people in the world—why?
People in L.A. are not the realest people in the world. The realest people in the world care and give everything they got—they don’t just give the shirt of their back, they give the closet. They don’t dig in their pocket for change—they give the bankroll. I know this. I’ve given the bankrolls—when I can. When I get paid to do a verse for someone, I go out and I do things for my crew. I do things for my children. If somebody says they need change, I dig in my pockets and give it to them. Because if it is in my pocket then it’s loose change. And I do that because I care and I’m tired of these tears. I’m tired of this inner crying. I don’t want to do this no more. It hurts. Like really—my heart is broken on a real level, homie, and because I said I would speak the truth in all these interviews I’m about to give this year because we have Koch backing us up now—la la la—we big right now. So I’m gonna give my message profoundly in a sober mind. Without the alcohol that they think crazy Dudley drinks—no, I don’t. All this bull that they say I can’t sing—I know I can’t sing. It wasn’t meant to be singing. What I speak on in my music is against the system. So when people are in the system and love the system, I speak out against their whole livelihood—how they got to where they’re all at, through their religions, through their jobs, through their schooling, their home training, whatever it is—I’m speaking out against that. Nobody wants somebody they don’t know with an afro who has this ghetto slang to tell them some truth. They’re not hearing it. But you know what, by golly, I got some truth. And my truth is profound—I know it is because I analyzed it with other people.
Do you feel like a reaction like that means something?
I get a reaction from people but I get upset—I know the realm that I’m working from is straight from the heart. I don’t tell things in my music that I haven’t went through. So when people get at me—‘Oh, this dude is corny.’ Beause at the end of Ol’ Dirty Bastard’s life he was coming to profound words. ‘When is this guy gonna quit? He isn’t no good without Madlib’ and stuff like that. They don’t understand that Madlib gave me all those beats. I could go to Madlib now if I wanted to force the issue but he’d be busy with all those cats trying to do me—trying to do our sound. Anybody trying to get Madlib is trying to capture what we’ve done already.
What’s been happening with you and Georgia? It seems like you two stepped back from music for a bit, and suddenly it’s two albums on the same day.
I don’t even talk about the music, as you can see, but I’ll give this to you. And that’s one thing that God told Georgia also—we speak on the spirit and that’s it. We don’t waste our time with these magazines—we use the magazines for the message. But over the last two years—when I met Georgia, she was working with cats who didn’t know the potential or the enlightenment of just being and so the music was just like some secular music. The groups she was working with before weren’t allowing her to tap into her full ability. I come from a crew who are very innovative and creative. 805 crew—Funk Farm, Madlib, Oh No, Medaphoar, Wild Child, Roc C—you know there’s many of us from Oxnard and we knew what we were doing was going to get hated on. We spoke these things because we were doing something to the left. A movement is to the left. So that’s what we’ve been doing. I was doing all this music with the Stones Throw cats and all these labels—I’ve been doing all this music for these people but I never received any money. Well, you know—little advances here and there. I have children, I have to eat, I have to live. I’ve been under mad amounts of stress because of that situation—to not be able to feed and provide for my children because I’m doing this music and helping these other entities providing for their families and friends, and unbeknownst to me I was getting dirt from lots of labels. So when I met Georgia, I was recording an album called Expressions with Stones Throw and I needed some change. And they gave me 6,000 dollars and I needed it. Georgia was also about this—Georgia was actually the woman signed to Stones Throw. That was sort of my influence. But it seemed Stones Throw didn’t have no respect for us. I don’t know what the reason was—maybe it was because we are kind of black. We are very very Afrocentric. But not the Afrocentric where we wear black and green all the time. Our hearts are there—we don’t have to visually stun people with it. So after Expressions we hooked up with another label and put a record out called G&D. It was just some music we made when we were meditating up in the mountains. We stayed there for like a year and we were off the radar just working on music and reading and teaching each other. I found out who I was by finding out my history. Georgia never left my side since the day I met her. Except when I’m out on tour sometimes—it’s about 4 and a half years now—5 years now—we have a child now. We’ve been through thick and thin so we’ve just toured a lot. We did shows and were feeling each other out to see what we do. I spoke out truthfully and powerfully. Then a lot of hate came my way. The people lashed out at me. I’ve seen that. I said, ‘You know what? To each his own’ and I turned my back. But at the same time I’ve been building this arsenal of power and each step I walk is a bullet toward all the hate I have to take for speaking the word of divine truth on this planet for the black man, white man or whatever the color they are—I speak for these idiots and that’s what they are, sleepwalking idiots. I speak for them with everything I got—I could go the other way and talk about rims and booty and drink and all that—man, it’s easy. I don’t do that because I’m not told to do that—momma doesn’t say to do that. She says, ‘Help me, son—they are killing me, they are killing my newborn babies, they are killing off the air, they are killing the water, they are killing the fish. In the water they are eating up everything—the things that are alive.’ The divine spirits didn’t make bodies to be eaten—they made them to produce and thrive and sustain. So all the people who are drinking cow milk, guess how many mommas they got? This is real, homie—this hurts, too. It really does hurt. Like ‘I lost a girlfriend back in the day’ kinda mess. Every time I see these movements where the government is pulling the wool over peoples’ eyes even more with the black president and all that. The feeling when he got elected—that feeling across the planet—that was for the wrong guy.
Who was the right guy?
We are the right guys. Once we figure out that we are gods on earth—not one man. One monkey don’t run no show. We’re either risen apes or fallen angels—which one will it be? I’m a god, homie. I just got sidetracked—I got hit in the head and I lost my memory and so now I’m performing heart surgery on myself and as people watch me perform heart surgery on myself, they like it and now they will like it more. My hate will fall away because there is nothing else to cling to.
Is that where you’re trying to get?
To get past the hate? If I get past the hate, that means other people on this planet can get past the hate. If people stop hating on certain things that are real? Think about it.
What things are real?
Well, what ain’t real are institutions of war. What are real are institutions of meditation. What ain’t real is institutions of entertainment. What is real are institutions of prayer. You see what I’m saying. And it ain’t praying like, ‘God, give me this.’ I’m talking about being with the spirit—all of us being with the spirit and the spirit means the creative energy that allows you to be. And dwell in that. Maybe people need to hold hands and hum and cry. A lot of our people go out there and fight wars—I was in the military but I didn’t have to kill nobody, thank God. I was in Desert Storm. I got to see first hand that it was BS. I tried to get out—I was having fun, I was messing with the chaplain and all that. ‘I don’t want to be here—this war is stupid as hell.’ I’d walk through singing ‘War is hell.’
What did people think about that?
Some of the most powerful words—how many times do you hear the words ‘war is hell?’ ‘No more war.’
I’ve heard it most often from soldiers.
That’s because they realize that it’s just killing people—that’s all there is to it. It doesn’t matter the reason for it—they’re killing someone. They are participating in slaughter and murder and they wear a suit to do it. ‘I look good—I can feed my kid.’ But what about those peoples’ kids? What about the lady who is walking to the store in Afghanistan and the bomb comes out of nowhere and hit her child and she was taking food to the other children and her back was turned to the bomb? What about her? What about the grandmother that was in a wheelchair? What about the children in the hospitals who go through the wars and raids and they turn the electricity off in the hospitals and the children on life support die slowly? Or besides the babies dying slowly—what about the people who have to witness this?
How do people become capable of doing those things?
5,000 years ago the indigenous people of this planet created a species of being to be of servitude to mine for gold. It’s in the Bible. They had a few genes missing—like melanin. Melanin allows for you to change—to groove. These beings couldn’t groove. These beings were on destruction but they still held the facilities of the melanated people. The ones who care about peace and love. They could mimic these things perfectly. Lo and behold, during genetic splicing—sex—these genes come together. So now we’ve got this planet the way it is right here—now—where people can get along, but back then those beings we created were animalistic. They ate babies, they ate meat, they lived in caves—this is real history, check it out. Institutions were started about 2,000 years ago for people who just got here. All these schools and colleges and stuff—money—it’s for people who just got here, when there’s people who are millions of years old on this planet. They’ve been genetically changed and there is still a genetic spark in some humans on this planet—I might not even have it but I think I might have some of it because this is what I feel. I feel this planet.
How does it feel when you get as close to the spirit as you get?
There would be some zones where people get—the churches call it the Holy Spirit. I would get in these zones where I would sit there and talk almost robot, where messages come out. I was speaking these words of reasoning and common sense about the planet and I could incorporate things about people I knew of and what they’d done and I could incorporate that like almost automatically—just stream of consciousness. It’s a little crazy. Just because I want that.
Is that feeling in the music?
Have you heard Holy Smokes yet? Listen to it again. Listen to it with an open heart from beginning to end when you have the time. It’s long, but when you have the time listen to it and tell me it don’t open up the heart. Me and Georgia, we can’t do much—we don’t have money and finances to do big giant things. We can’t get a whole team of people to go post up flyers and be visually seen so we do it through the sound. And we’ve been underground, too, so it’s like Harriet Tubman and the underground railroad. They can’t shut me down—it’s too late. When certain records come out and they have profound words in them, they try to water it down and try to make the person seem bad or whatever, like they do to me. Every word I put from beginning to end, I spoke on truth. I didn’t lollygag. Not one record—find ‘em. I might talk about the holy herb every once in a while, but find it—from beginnng to end I haven’t loll gagged. They call me all kinds of names—marble mouth, warble mouth, dude on crack, its crazy—Okayplayer be getting on me. Okayplayer’s funny—they hate me and Georgia. Me, it’s always been—because of messing with the inner psyche of people so much—I get either extreme love or extreme hate. There is no in-between with me. They either get it or they don’t. If they don’t get it, then it’s not for them.
What’s the most important thing for you to make sure is in your music?
I’ll tell you what’s important not to be in there. Ego. If you take ego out of there, then it’s for the planet. I don’t speak on myself much in my music and I take ego away. I don’t speak about what I’m trying to obtain, I don’t speak on what I have. I speak to people through music. I’m a TV station to the people. A lot of artists like KRS ONE and all them, they do these things. They don’t see me because I do what they do. Of course you don’t wanna stand by somebody who do what they do. They rather get somebody who don’t do what they do and collab with them. Hey, KRS-ONE, you need to holler at your brother, man! Any truth speakers in this music need to holler at your brother. But I’m smashing through right now—there’s nothing that can stop me. The machine I have behind me is spirit-driven—it’s spirit-given. The machine I have is insane right now. Koch—E1—wants to get in on this. Universal Canada wants this. I went at these people like this—‘Look, OK—I’ve been doing this music for a long time. You know about me. Do you want to leave this planet knowing that you help destroy it with bad energy and bad thoughts by helping these demonic black people spread lies?’ Black people are like batteries—they have a lot of spirit to give. When they do this music, a lot of that energy goes out there to the planet. Personally, each individual black person does it—like Beyonce. All that ego music she does, it goes out to the planet. I came out to them and said, ‘Do you want to go the rest of your life with this?’ I said, ‘Look, I have music that is on par with them. I make sure all the concepts and art on the covers are stunning and creative. I make sure there are instrumentals. I’m giving the people what they’re supposed to have. If you’re going to pay for this and go through these companies and I’m the one providing it, I’m gonna make sure you get your money’s worth. At the same time, I’m gonna make sure your heart is open and I’m gonna plant seeds at the same time—I’m gonna plant seeds that you don’t have no choice about their growth.’ We smack the mess out of you—we march in on you and then we smack the mess out of you. We give a relentless attack on this album and then we slow it down and let you know why it was Dudley Perkins saying it. Because this album is really an introduction to Declaime again. I’m an MC. I’ve got another record after this called The Funk and it’s what you would call my ‘commercial’ album—it’s twelve beats produced by Snoop Dogg’s old producer. It’s big, it’s clear, it’s got big giant beats like Snoop Dogg beats and the microphone I use is really good and I made sure the cadence isn’t too much for people. You could follow along every word and every hook. But it’s still got the freaky flow. Holy Smokes is what I was supposed to do with Madlib, but I never got the chance to fulfill because Madlib got busy. When I work with producers and I get the pure message for Mother Earth and for Africa—right now the only person that can do that for me is Georgia Anne Muldrow because she cries for Africa. I don’t make money doing this music—my music is to go and speak to the people. I don’t think I need music to go speak to people because I got this flow down anyways and I want to go speak—I don’t want to do no Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson crap with perms in their hair. I want to speak from the center of Africa. I don’t want to be in America doing it. It makes more sense doing it over there. I will die on African soil. My label is called SomeOthaShip, so it’s a ship to take me over there.
You said that ‘America is a country where everybody is afraid of everybody.’ What did you mean?
America is fear based and one of the main soups to feed the people is fear. Wars, rumors of wars, the devil movies, spooky movies, their war gangster movies and their cowboy movies, the TV shows that always show somebody scared or hating somebody—every single thing is about fear. Fear keeps the spirit from growing and growing. Fear is the opposite of love.
The Monks said all songs are love songs—do you agree?
All songs are from the heart. I do all my songs from the heart. A lot of Americans’ hearts are in money because they talk about things that is from the money heart. The majority of black people in America were taught to worship money—the dollar bill. The money is actually a religious instrument. The paper has an energy on it. That’s why when you give it away, it’s like giving away part of your soul.
What kind of world do you want your children to grow up in?
I want a world that cares about each other. The world never stops caring about the people on it. Even in times when they destroy it, they cut her hair with the rainforests and poke holes in her body and suck out her blood and pollute her and cancer her up with buildings and pavement, she still keeps giving to us. So I want to be in a world where people give back to the world. We need to go through the history of what has caused this and then we gotta tell people why this is like this and then that’s gonna be like an automatic awakening once somebody profound says it to them. If somebody like Obama said ‘this is what happened back in the days that started it,’ then they would believe it. But when people like me and Georgia say it, it’s just unbelievable. It’s a conspiracy. Here’s something funny. All these years I’ve been doing this music and doing these messages and doing this even with Georgia, it’s been a hard rocky road. A really hard time—just rough. I would sit there with my hand to my forehead like, ‘What am I doing wrong? Why doesn’t anybody what to hear this?’ I’m being funky, I’ll even tone it down and I’m hitting cadences, I know I’m flowing. But as soon as I start speaking on the system, the people in the system turn their backs. What was the question again? What I’m saying is that on all this rough road that I walked upon and for now for it to be so easy and I listen to the music that’s out there and how silly it is. Where they praise people, all them MCs out there, all the artists who aren’t speaking about Africa—if they aren’t speaking about the things I just said, they’re full of crap. Coons. They’re doing it more now to where the music is autotuned and they deadened the God in the music. They music is dead now. There aren’t too many songs coming from the heart. For some reason these companies are coming in droves—coming this way because I’ve spoken out. I’ve spoken for Mother Earth and the echo is coming back. So it must mean something that I’m maneuvering this way. So now with this mastering and all this good music. We got—we got Rick DeDe, head of Agape choir, with all of that funk going on. We actuallty got two albums—one is called Supreme Inspiration and it’s coming out on E1/Koch and it actually has Michael Jackson on it. And we have another called Love Project—produced by Georgia Anne Muldrow, and they will hate on her, but she’s outsmacking a lot of dudes right now.
How did you get Michael Jackson?
Well, Georgia’s mom and her husband, the Rev—a famous spiritual leader—he was in that movie The Secret. That’s her stepdaddy. They knew Michael personally so he spoke on the album for it and gave his blessings to it and the album and to the movement. When he did it I got to hear him talk through Georgia’s mom—he left a message on her answering service. It might even still be on it. And his voice sounded like a million people—even if he was faking it, I felt the energy in his voice of a million people. It was like an angel. We have all this music already ready. So that’s what those two years were for. I went to school to learn how to do a label. It’s coming out—it’s getting out now. One of my dreams was about the music and the part that I play in this music. Whether you want to call it prophecy or whatever you want to call it, it’s coming to light right now. I spoke this into existence—I manifested this. The message can get there now on bigger levels—to get the hearts we missed who are probably truly open and now we’re about to get to them. You know all that ego stuff—see this stuff happening right now. There’ll be more interviews—plus we dropped both our albums on the same day, so that way I can see which magazines are behind all this bull. Because when they got an album with the same quality and they pick one over the other and not display both of them, I’ll be able to gauge when the magazine calls how to react toward that interview. Like you—you got some things answered. Anybody else, if they ain’t coming correct with the spirit, we’re not gonna answer no questions. We’re gonna give solutions.
When you do interviews like this, what’s most important to put in there?
What’s important to put in there is to wake up. And if you don’t know what it is, find out what it means.